isaac
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Posts: 331
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Post by isaac on Oct 12, 2010 12:27:29 GMT -7
Hello folks,
How early do we see mention of leather pantaloons with the fringe as seen in the Miller paintings? Rod, any among Nor'westers in the Missouri or beyond?
I know that leather breeches were common in the east early on and they are mentioned in many journals and etc. Some below are from my buddy Karl's notes...
Also, leather pantaloons for riding come into fashion by the 1810s if not earlier... SO... leather pantaloons among traders and etc. in the west at what dates?
Thanks,
Isaac
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Post by sean on Oct 13, 2010 19:11:31 GMT -7
I know James Baird's effects contained a pair of pantaloons when he died in El Paso Del Norte in 1826. I don't believe they specified leather or cloth. Baird had been in Mexico since 1812 and was outfitted for a trapping expedition into the Gila country in '26. He took sick en route to Tucson and died shortly after returning to El Paso. A portion of his goods were inventoried in both English and Spanish upon his death, but the rest disappeared into the country to the West with one of his Mexican engages along with much of his stock. The list was reprinted in his bio in Hafen's 10 volume set.
Sean
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Post by Chuck Burrows on Oct 13, 2010 23:22:42 GMT -7
Off hand I can't think of any period cites specifically for fringed pantaloons or trousers until the 1830's. Even the known western leggings of the earlier period don't seem to have a lot of leather fringe but rather human hair or horse hair. here's a search of the Xmission site for pantaloons - of course there is variant spelling possibilites www.google.com/cse?cx=001430202502149324205%3Aixsufj3grxk&q=pantaloons&cof=FORID%3A0there is also possible mis-application of the term since this was a period where the terms pantaloons, breeches, and trousers appear at times to overlap - one example: JO Pattie 1824-1834 appears to call what were most likely breeches (knee pants) as short pantaloons. Kind of like today where pants, trousers, britches, etc may all be applied to the same kind of pants no matter what - |
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isaac
Mountaineer
Posts: 331
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Post by isaac on Oct 14, 2010 12:21:10 GMT -7
I was just told that Thompson mentions antelope pantaloons in what is published in Wood and Theissen... I need to recheck that. Hard to say what he was talking about though...
IW
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Post by Rod on Oct 18, 2010 17:54:27 GMT -7
Isaac---I've been digging through my sources, including Thompson, but I haven't found much. Mentions of leather breaches, but I can't find much of anything on pantaloons. Doesn't mean that it isn't in there, I just haven't found it yet. On the other hand, by the 1830s they are listed in the Ft. Hall records. There is what appears to be leather ankle-length underwear (!) shown in the book "Tailor Made and Trail Worn", by Moore and Haynes, that belonged to Titian Ramsey Peale. Used on the Long Expedition (1819-20), the set also includes a leather undershirt. They're in the collections of the Jefferson Expansion Museum, St. Louis.
As to the fringes--they probably take after the look of native leggings worn over cloth pantaloons or trousers to protect the legs. Wearing leggings over cloth trousers seems to have been fairly common.
Rod
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isaac
Mountaineer
Posts: 331
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Post by isaac on Oct 19, 2010 8:17:24 GMT -7
Thanks guys. I see that leather pantallons start to enter mounted military usage in by the EARLY 1800s and that for riding, it would not be out there to see leather pantaloons (although I think leather breeches would still be more common among civilians into the early 1800s). The cool fringed ones like seen in Miller's paintings... probably as you guys are saying... 1830s.
Isaac
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Post by Rod on Nov 29, 2010 20:37:33 GMT -7
Isaac---
I was looking through some pics stored on my computer tonight, and came across one of a fellow wearing fringed something on his legs--not sure if it's pantaloons or leggings. The pic is a drawing by Rindisbacher, it's the sketch showing several people inside the cabin of a Red River settler---do you know the one? Couple of guns on the wall, one a NW gun, the other almost looks like a Hudson Valley fowler, guy in a tailcoat, woman in a dress, and a couple of engagés over to the side. This is one of those times I really wish I could post images easily. Anyway, the guy sitting over in the corner has definate fringes down the outside seam of whatever he's wearing.
worth a look, anyway.
Rod
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Post by Chuck Burrows on Nov 29, 2010 22:24:55 GMT -7
Rod - is this it??? They do look like pantaloons but without the underfoot strap (which I personally found/find a pain - all kinds of crap seems to build up under it.....  )  |
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isaac
Mountaineer
Posts: 331
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Post by isaac on Nov 30, 2010 7:15:30 GMT -7
Yup... have seen that one a million times and always assumed legging... definately COULD BE pantaloons. Hmmmm....
IW
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Post by RileyMN on Nov 30, 2010 11:12:39 GMT -7
How about the guy standing there in the middle with his hands in his pockets.....
Did Pete ever paint this one, or is it just the drawing available?
(nice dog. too...)
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Lloyd
Mountaineer
Posts: 117
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Post by Lloyd on Nov 30, 2010 11:54:01 GMT -7
Riley,
Those would be more properly called trousers... Pantaloons were much more fitted in the calf and generally had a piece that went under the instep...
I would say that the guy seated on the right smoking a pipe has on what appears to be fringed pantaloons or fringed leggings... I tend to think pantaloons, because the guy in the middle with the flap leggings has on what I would speculate as being a more period/area correct style...
The fringed leather pantaloons tended to imitate those tight calved pantaloons that were the latest style (in the early 19th century) back east and in europe...
(I tried to post the pictures below here in this post, but it did not work... Oh well.)
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Lloyd
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Posts: 117
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Post by Lloyd on Nov 30, 2010 12:06:25 GMT -7
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Lloyd
Mountaineer
Posts: 117
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Post by Lloyd on Nov 30, 2010 12:19:58 GMT -7
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isaac
Mountaineer
Posts: 331
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Post by isaac on Nov 30, 2010 14:12:00 GMT -7
I would say that the guy seated on the right smoking a pipe has on what appears to be fringed pantaloons or fringed leggings... I tend to think pantaloons, because the guy in the middle with the flap leggings has on what I would speculate as being a more period/area correct style...) Rindisbacher DOES, however, show fringed leggings in a few other works... sometimes right along side folks with flapped leggings. I also know that fringed leggings were around the Red River as well as up and down the Mississippi in this period and are definately a possibility with this guy. That said, it is very possible that they are pantaloons as well. Oh... and no, Rindisbacher never painted this one. IW |
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Post by Rod on Nov 30, 2010 19:50:00 GMT -7
That's the one---Thanks, Chuck.
The thing that struck me about those fringed whatever they are, is the lack of leg ties--note the ties on the fellow with the flapped leggings. I realize that leg ties aren't all that necessary, and plains leggings often didn't use them. Personally, if I don't have leg ties, my leggings will drag my belt right down---but maybe that's just the way I'm built.
Rod
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