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Post by Steve Jajo on Jul 18, 2010 8:35:54 GMT -7
 Has old rawhide repair. Northern Minnesota. C. 1800's. |
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Post by sean on Jul 18, 2010 11:31:19 GMT -7
Steve,
Without more pictures, I would guess that is probably a locally assembled parts gun. I think the majority of the pistols for the trade were English and Belgian flint holster pistols generally sold in pairs. I've seen several Ketlands with English or Belgian proofs. They varied a fair fit over time, but most had cheap, unbridled locks and brass smoothbore barrels in the .58-.69 range, roughly 8-9" long. Pistols were not all that common in the Indian trade. I've always thought that the majority of those shipped west went to traders and trappers more so than the tribes.
Sean
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Post by Steve Jajo on Jul 18, 2010 11:52:01 GMT -7
Sean that was the very brief description that accompanied the photo. Granted not much to go on.
Steve
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Post by Librarian on Jul 18, 2010 12:17:38 GMT -7
How do!
It has what appears to be the lock, breech, and trigger guard from a French or Swiss musket (or Belgian clone) from the 1830's or 1840's recycled into a new pistol stock.
This type of arm could be a period assembly, or were assembled for parts after WWI for the African native trade or even WWII for the tourist trade.
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Post by Rod on Jul 18, 2010 12:28:04 GMT -7
The hammer style definately looks French. When it came over here? Hard to say---might well be later Indian Wars era--or, as has been suggested, later than that. It's really difficult to tell. By the late 1800s, there was alot of odd Euro and Asian stuff coming in for the Indian trade. Somewhere around here, I've a photo of a Blackfoot man, late 1800s, carrying of all things, a samurai sword. Where he got that is anyone's guess.
Rod
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Post by Cap't Bridger on Jul 18, 2010 13:00:58 GMT -7
Wonder if there's any proof that it isn't what it says it is ?
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Post by sean on Jul 18, 2010 14:00:58 GMT -7
Wonder if there's any proof that it isn't what it says it is ? Capt'n B, I didn't mean to insult anyone with that. The lock, breech, trigger guard, lock panels and general architecture are not representative of most pistols of the period that were made for the trade, but that doesn't mean that a guy in MN couldn't have cobbled it together out of a bucket of parts and traded it to a Sioux or Ojibway brave at some point. However, proof is rarely available on any of this stuff. Best we can do is compare to other examples as well as business records and see how well it fits. Steve, no offense intended. I've got a picture of a 'Ketland' holster pistol with Belgian proofs that was all tacked up at some point. I'll try to scan it and post it this week. Sean |
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Post by Steve Jajo on Jul 18, 2010 15:55:08 GMT -7
Sean no offense taken. I hate to post stuff without more info but sometimes I just can't find anymore. I agree with you though that not many indians had a pistol.
Steve
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Post by Librarian on Jul 18, 2010 18:10:28 GMT -7
How do!
"Wonder if there's any proof that it isn't what it says it is?"
An excellent question. And, IMHO, one of the values of putting things up and discussing them.
Our of archeological context, and/or solid historical provenance an documentation- NOTHING is proof. It is just an object or an artifact out of context. It could be what it is presented as, thought to be, is. Or not.
Just like the illustrations I use of the British P1856 Enfield sword bayonet in the historical society labelled as "A relic of the 1763 Bradstreet Expedition to relieve Fort Detroit. Or the late model M1873 Springfield stmaped "1894" that my desk partner's family held as the musket used by their g-g-g-g-grandfather in the Rev War.
OR, the darker side of deceit, fraud, and misrepresentation where someone takes post Civil War Canadian or British stuff and makes it "Confederate" to increase its value. OR, takes a French, Austrian, or Prussian musket and make it Civil War because that triples or quadruples its value over being just a "French" musket."
Or, one I saw today- a reed from a post 1930's Hohner harmonica being sold as Civil War.
Or, the EBAY sellers that like to say "I got this thing from a garage sale (or the attic of an elderly neighbor lady) and know nothing about it. But I think it is a rare widget."
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Post by sean on Jul 18, 2010 18:20:39 GMT -7
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