American horned saddles

[sean]

I was answering a question on another board on saddles. I figure that some of you here might be interested in this stuff. Here are a few examples of 1810-1855 American horned saddles.

This early eagle head saddle circa 1810-1820 is built on an English type tree:

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=3&pid=597

Here is a reproduction of a war of 1812 era horned saddle from Stuart Lilie that is built on an English type tree:

www.stuartliliesaddles.com/index_files/saddles/jacobbrown.htm

Here is a drawing of a horned saddle tree based on an English tree. This is from an 1842 tack shop advertisement that was republished in 'Man Made Mobile':

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=3&pid=587

Here's an example of a saddle built on a tree like that from that era:

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=2&pid=568

And here is one of my favorite period paintings by Lino Sanchez y Tapia from about 1828-29 of a Kickapoo warrior with roached hair, war paint, rifle, pipe-hawk, and knife astride a big white horse on the Trinity River in Texas. He is riding an American horned saddle that appears to be based on an English tree with a crupper and no blanket under the saddle.

www.texasbeyondhistory.net/forts/clark/images/kickapoo.html

In the 1830's Grimsley talks of incorporating the Spanish tree in American horned saddles.

Here is a Natchez-made American saddle on a Spanish-type tree that is likely from the 1840's:

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=2&pid=577

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=2&pid=576

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=3&pid=598

Note the triangular rings attached on the pommel on the above saddle for hanging narrow stirrup leathers. This was the common way of doing this among the Mississippi Valley saddlers and I've seen it on several original pieces.

Here's a sketch from Rudolpf Kurz of a 'Californian' riding a similar saddle in 1851:

www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/images/kurz/plate11.jpg

Here is an interesting Mexican War era eagle head saddle with pretty much the same horn as the eagle head above, but it has a 4-piece Spanish-styled tree:

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=5&pid=1099

confederatesaddles.com/cswp/?page_id=792&nggpage=5&pid=1100

Enjoy,

Sean

[pathfinder]

Sean

Thanks for the information.

Any chance anyone has reproduced the "eagle horn"?

Doug

[sean]

Not to my knowledge. I expect you'd have to get someone to sand cast the horn from a model. They are cool though, aren't they? Not an eagle horn, but Stuart Lillie's saddle has a lot of potential for early Western fur trade stuff. Far as I know he's the only one reproducing a poled English tree saddle unless you count some of the modern Aussie saddles. If you talked to him he might be able to get someone like Reeves Geohring to cast one for him. I'm sure he could do it if you could get a horn.

Sean

[pathfinder]

Stuart Lillies saddles are a bit rich for me at this point. I lost a Bob Schmidt Sante Fe and a Grimsley saddle and can't justify much right now.......probably next saddle will be a Hope saddle...possibly a jerk line saddle. I am riding a Buena Vista plantation saddle right now...which isn't necessarily p.c. but it will have to do.

Thanks! Doug

[sean]

I can't afford one either, but they are neat rigs. I'm horse and mule free at the moment. Not enough time for them, but one of these days I'll get back into that.

As for the Spanish trees I really like the stuff Oliver McCloskey has been doing. His stuff isn't quite so steep.

Sean

[pathfinder]

Does Mcloskey have a web site? I presently have two Percheron....no mules but I hope to change that soon as well. I owned mules for 20 years before moving to Idaho.
This is Mary with one of our Pathfinder kids...Randy.....forgive the nylon halter........bought the horses just before this trek!

[Lloyd]

I'm gonna steal a little bit of Sean's fire,,,,
There was a pretty good conversation going over on Muzzleloader Mag board on saddles.
muzzleloadermag.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5791081811/m/558102303

I have a couple friends down in the Pocatello area and they got their tree's from Bowden Saddle Tree Company. They started out with the FL Roper tree and had some guy modify the top of the saddle horn so it looks more like this one:


I thought I had a picture of their saddles, but I can't find them in this mess called a computer... (I only have a little junk on it... lol lol lol)

[sean]

Thanks, Lloyd. The the two saddles that Bufflerrub1880 posted are McCloskey's. He has no website, but his number is 435-592-4152. Oliver does a lot of braintanning, and sells hides and finished clothing too.

Lloyd as for the saddle drawing you posted from the MM sketchbook, James Hanson did that back in 1976 and it was his guess at the time of what a trapper's saddle might have looked like. The stirrup leather attachment and stirrups would suggest it would've been of New Mexican origins and most of the period saddles I've seen were rigged more towards centerfire (i.e. cinch in the middle) where as this one is rigged forward in the full position. Also, I don't think the hand-holes in the cantle were super common before the 1840's. There is one Miller field sketch of a saddle that may be interpreted as having a single hand-hole. See 'Bill Burrows' for that. Otherwise, I haven't seen until a later Gold Rush era sketch by Audubon.

Glad you guys are interested in this stuff. I really enjoy period horse tack.

Sean

[Lloyd]

Sean,
I posted the picture to illustrate the horn shape that the guys modified the FL Roper tree to.

With the rigging on that saddle that Hansen drew, I bet your horse would be lame in a matter of an hour or so... Anything with the cinch that for forward would really dig into the withers and front shoulders.

I figure a centerfire rig would be best for an exposed tree saddle. That would also put your weight (when standing in the stirrups) more in the middle of the side bars.

However, looking at that old tree that Will posted.... They might not have even thought about the comfort of the horse.

[sean]

I'm with you on rigging. I think centerfire to 5/8 would work best for these and that's the way you see most Spanish-tree saddles of the period rigged.

You know when I saw that tree Will posted I kinda thought it was made by someone for decoration. All the parts of the saddle are REALLY thick.

Speaking of uncomfortable saddle trees. I've seen several relic trees that were obviously built for straight backed mules with little thought to bar shape. One I've seen, that obviously had a lot of miles on it, had bars that were just planks with the edges rounded up. It looked like the sort of tree that was going to leave sores both below and above, if you get my drift.

Sean

[jeffp]

Sean, Pathfinder-

check out Karl Pepper's saddles too.
Karl specializes in Confederate style saddles, but also does
Hopes. he does a lot of work with Ken Knopp on the Confederate
saddles. Karl's saddle prices are really reasonable....I picked up
one of his Atlanta Arsenal saddles from him this winter, they're well made.

The AA saddle is a bastardized hope....you can probably find it on Ken's site too.

Karl Pepper at: www.glenpierdepot.com

[sean]

Here's the correct url for that.

www.glennpierdepot.us/

He does nice looking work and pretty reasonably. Thanks, Jeff. If you could stick some stirrup irons on that and get him to change the stirrup hangers, it would work nicely for the fur trade.

Sean

[Lloyd]

Neat stuff.

I like the looks of the Atlanta Ars. tree. But do they make it in 17 or 18 inch for us fat boys?

[jeffp]

Thanks for fixing that Sean! ;D

Lloyd, not sure if they come in those sizes exactly or not,
but I did I talk with Karl about that very subject, cuz I'm a pretty big guy.
I think mine is 15" or 15.5", he said it would work really well for me,
because he's built like me and that's what his saddle size is.
Shoot him an email, he'll get back to you pretty fast.

I'm really pleased with mine.

-Jeff

[jeffp]

Lloyd, Sean & all-

Here's my Glen Pier Depot AA saddle that Karl Pepper
made for me; rawhide seat, half skirts, linen cinch,
no fenders and oak stirrups. the bridal is a 1863 Federal
Cav issue. I have an original Mex "gourd" saddle that I use
for "show & tell" it's outfitted with with a wood tree and
rawhide covered seat, and iron stirrups. The saddle probably
dates to the 1870s, or before.

I have a set of plans for the Fur trade era cottonwood stirrups
that I'm going to make, as well as a snaffle bit, and am working
on putting together an ephisimore, as well as a halter and reins
that is based on Deas' painting of "Long Jakes"

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