WESTERN TRADE RIFLES

[dgras]

Did anyone see the J. Dickert Gill rifle for sale on gunbroker? The more I see of these Penn. made rifles by various makers it is becoming clearer the similarities on the guns which were made for larger orders at a lower cost. Many parts are the same on guns by different makers, I wonder if there was more cooperation among these makers to fill large contracts.
Sorry I missed this gun, a good rep. of what was used.

[sean]

I missed that one. I rarely look at gunbroker for anything more complex than percussion doubles. However the D-G brothers are among my favorites. In general, they were not as good at carving as their grandpap, but they were better engravers. They were likely smalfries in the world of big rifle contracts, though. They are thought to have had some early contracts with Astor up to about 1830. After that they seemed have kept one foot in the gunsmith world and another in the furniture world. Jacob died in the 1850s with a reasonable but not large estate. Benjamin died in about 1860 pretty much penniless. Guns marked by the former are more common, but I've seen a few BD Gill marked guns and I suspect he was the better engraved of the two.

Sean

[Chuck Burrows]

The more I see of these Penn. made rifles by various makers it is becoming clearer the similarities on the guns which were made for larger orders at a lower cost.

In part that is due to the fact that the fur companies ordered to a pattern - here's an example of what I mean:

In October of 1825 William B. Astor wrote Henry, "on the subject of Rifles. We continue to import a part of those annually required for our trade; but we usually get 100 or 200 manufactured in the United States, and it will depend much on both price and quality whether we do not in future procure the whole quantity in this country. The barrels of our Rifles are, from 3 ft 8 Inches, to 3 ft 10, and the calibre is in part of them 32 [to the pound] while others carry a ball of 40 to the pound - the Locks are of the best strong roller kind; but not water, proof - The stocks are generally of our native Maple, or Sugar-tree, but we may wish part of them of Black Walnut. The mounting including the PatchBox, is of Brass and well ornamented; and each Gun must have Wipers to screw-on to the thimblerods, and a good Ball mould. The whole weight of the Rifle complete, is from 9 to 10 lbs. . . ."

In 1830 an order for ten rifles sent to, John Joseph Henry specified that the guns were to be "3 feet 6 1/2 to 3 feet 8 inches in the barrel to carry a ball 32 to 40 to the pound, and in every other respect to be the same as the sample Rifle of J. Dickert and Gill now furnished by the Compy."

while the first quote notes non-waterproof pans, later orders specify waterproof pans so there is variation in the orders over time........

[sean]

The pattern thing is one of those things that a lot of us modern people don't really get. A pattern gun was submitted to the company as an example of their work. It did not really guarantee that all rifles produced for future contracts would be exactly the same. Some have interpreted Charlie Hanson's writings that way, but in reality all of these guns were hand made and none were exactly alike. A Lancaster pattern rifle in the 1830s had a 4-piece box, but the shape of the finial might differ widely. As dgras mentions parts from one type might be used on another. I've seen Henry rifles that mixed and matched Lancaster and new and old English parts. Makers also traded parts back and forth to fill contracts. It's not uncommon to find a Henry lock or a Tryon box on a rifle by a totally different maker. I've even seen conglomerate guns that while they appeared to be all original, we may never know which company actually assembled them. Finally, as Chuck mentions, there was even feedback and requests from traders for minor variations in terms of locks, barrel lengths, calibers or gauges, and even mountings. These requests likely resulted in small special runs that further added to the diversity in these guns.

[dgras]

I am glad to hear others see these the same as I do, close but not exact copies and sharing parts to fill contracts. I suspect at least Tryon and Henry worked together when you read personal letters inquiring about each others family( more cooperation than competition). With the loss of early American Fur Co records we will never be sure, but the more known contractors guns are photographed and match the contract requirements we will get a pretty good idea of the early rifles used in the the midwest and west. Thanks again for for the the site and responses.
Dale G