An English Lancaster rifle

[sean]

Another one from the Cowans site. This one has a 48" .54 swamped barrel with London proof marks and 'London' cut in script. The lock is marked Ketland and Co marked lock. The stock is English Walnut with carving behind the cheek. This gun was likely pre-war of 1812, but American traders such as AFC were importing rifles from England at least around 1830. I've also seen documentation of "American rifles" in HBC trade lists and have always guessed these were what they were talking about. Also note the similarity of the side plate to the English pattern rifles that came from England and later the Henry family in the US.

Sean

[Lloyd]

The English made some neat guns, but they never could figure out what to do with those cheek pieces....

I guess it all comes from not being "A Cheeky Fellow."

Cliff Noll made a bunch of those English Trade Rifles... I even made one, but I fancied mine up with checkering with brass studs in the squares...

[sean]

Lloyd,

I agree. Tough to really tell, but this one appears to have a pretty well-defined cheek for an English rifle. I think that generally a lot of the comments and opinions about English cheek pieces come from comparing them to chunkier, earlier American and German guns. I've handled a fair number of post 1800 era American rifles and generally find that they tend to be a lot thinner than most would think. In fact, it seems that most contemporary versions of rifles from that period have significantly thicker cheeks than the period pieces, and of course the sights are a heck of a lot taller in most cases.

Sean

[Mitch]

I want one.....

[Rod]

Hanson covers these to some extent in his new book, "Firearms of the Fur Trade". Shumway calls them the type B, and dates them to 1785-1800. Hanson notes that all known examples of this type were made by Ketland, and since Ketland did not have a government contract at this time, it points to them being civilian fur trade rifles, rather than British government gift or treaty rifles. Jim doesn't speculate on which company carried them---I kind of doubt the HBC at that time, the NWC is a pretty good possibility, or maybe the Southwest or Michilimackinac companies, as they were all trading south and west of the Great Lakes among natives who might be familiar with and want rifles.

See Hanson, Firearms of the Fur Trade, pages 260-264.


Rod

[sean]

Rod,

I have not gotten that book... yet. I would say that all of the English Lancaster pattern rifles I have seen have had Ketland marked locks, but that does not necessarily mean Ketland made all those rifles.

RE English rifles in the American fur trade.

This is from a letter from William B. Astor to J.J. Henry in 1825.

... on the subject of Riles. We continue to import a part of those annually required for our trade.

Source Garavaglia and Worman 1984 page 35.

There is also a fine summary of newspaper advertisements for guns from St. Louis from 1823-1840 in the elder Hanson's Hawken book that includes a variety of English, German and French arms for sale by gunsmiths and hard goods dealers. English guns were available on the frontier from a variety of sources.

Sean

[Rod]

Got to get a copy, Sean---the amount of information in it is staggering, to say the least.

From what I understand, the AFC was importing English rifles at least up through 1830---I'd assume by that time they'd have the military style patchbox like the BoO War of 1812 rifles, and the Henry English rifles?

I'm suspecting that, when government demand for rifles fell following 1815, Ketland and possibly other makers pushed to sell their products to the fur companies. Hanson also notes that there are Type A rifles made by Barnett, who dealt almost exclusively with the NWC (and later, the HBC).

Rod

[sean]

Rod

That book is on my list to get this spring.

BTW, that rifle definitely has pre-1813 London proofs.

Sean

[Rod]

Yep, I could see the proofs were the earlier variety.

While digging through Hanson's book, I came across a reference regarding post-1821 HBC rifles. The orders for 1831 from the Columbia Dept. included "Bond Rifles twist brl. 3 1/2 feet Barrels, 28 gauge, dia. Of brl. At muzzle 7/8"; 30 Rifles similar to those shipped in 1820 by Inglis Ellis & Co. & purchased of Thomas Barnett & Son". Also in 1831, an order for: "20 neat Rifle guns, Brown twisted Barrels to take out, with false breech and bolts, skeleton frame best swivel & roler locks, mounts, etc."

Apparently, the only part of one of these rifles Jim could find was a lock, the pic of which he includes in his book.

It stands to reason that the demand for rifles would be from the Columbia Dept., with its American style trapping brigades----although he includes a neat quote from Peter Skene Ogden's Snake Country Journal 1826-27, where Ogden doesn't think much of the rifles. Seems his men with rifles were wasting powder and lead in very long rifle shots, while those with NW guns knew they had to be up close so they couldn't miss.


Rod