Southwest trousers/pantaloon pattern

[Mark]

Sean, Chuck or others

Do you know of patterns or etc. for the SW style of pantaloon with the french fly?

In AJ Miller's "Gift to Indians," Stewart is painter with a french fly on his pantaloons. Then too in my reading I seem to remember the SW was using a french fly style.

Any thoughts anyone?

Mark

[whitehair]

Hey Mark, Would Book of Buckskinning IV help you at all? There's a chapter about "Styles of the Southwest" although I don't recall mention of the French fly... Of course, I'm just guessing that you want to be in proper style for the southwest corner of the camp at Marion, Montana. Hey, that would do it...! Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

[Mark]

Mike,

I have just recently reviewed that BOB. It does not go into detail on french fly or broad or narrow fall pantaloons. Gerrard and other talk about the side opening of the pants and the underdrawers showing. They do not mention the fly, etc openings according to my documentation.

Mark

[sean]

Mark,

I think you are talking about the Miller painting "Presents to Indians" where Stewart is depicted with his coat open and a seam up the middle of his crotch. There's not really enough info in that painting to definitively call that a French fly no matter what Rex Norman said in his sketchbook. See seam up the middle of the fall front in the attached photo of a pair of original English leather riding pantaloons that went up for auction some time back. They were represented as circa 1820-25. That said, if Stewart was wearing a pair of French fly pantaloons, it was likely a European influence and not Spanish or New Mexican. By the mid-40's 'French flies' were becoming popular across the West. It may have been that Stewart was a bit a head of the fashion of the Frontier and Far West.

On the topic of French fly calzoneras, Charlie Hanson wrote an article way back when in the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly on SW frontiersman's clothing. He had a line drawing in that article of a pair of buckskin breeches of Navajo provenance from the 1840s or 50s. They buttoned up the side in New Mexican fashion as well as the French fly in the front. He also referenced a 1770's Mexican painting depicting a man wearing a pair of fly front breeches and sort of attempted to connect the two dots across 80 years pleading that New Mexico was a back water burb and that the French fly may never have gone out of style there... Heck of a stretch to say the least... Finally, the paintings of calzoneras that I can recall either depicted them as breeches that were wider at the knee than eastern fashion or a more wide-legged trousers. I cannot recall side button pantaloons before the Gold Rush era, but I think pantaloons were more of a California fashion than New Mexico.

As for patterns for calzoneras, I do not know of any. Hamilton Dry Goods makes a pair of "Vaquero Pants" fairly cheaply, but I don't think they are representative for the 1830's or even really a much later period.

That's a pretty long winded way to answer "No", but hey, it was actually a pretty complex question. Hope that helps.

Sean

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[Cody]

By saying no does that mean they are'nt corect or you dont know where a patern is?Sometimes got to talk slow for me

[sean]

'No' meant that I don't know of anyone who makes a pattern for Mexican French fly calzoneras. The rest of it is best summed up as 'I really don't know how common French fly pantaloons were in the pre-1840 west, but I suspect they were rare.'

Sean

[Cody]

Thanks Ive been studying on that some too

[sean]

Let me just add that Garrard does use the term 'pantaloons' to describe the New Mexican side button calzoneras. I think that the terms 'trousers' and 'pantaloons' and maybe even 'breeches' were somewhat interchangeable in their use in period writings. In general, period art shows the calzoneras a bit baggier through the lower leg. They were usually left unbuttoned on the lower leg with the white cotton drawers left showing up the side of the leg. I'm sure that some gringos may have worn these, but many like Garrard had their eastern clothing copied in buckskin by native women.

Sean

[Cody]

It was my thought that breeches were the knee breeches .When your speaking of the calzoneras does that refer to the side button pants shown in the 1837 scetch book?

[sean]

Cody,

Rex Norman and others have guessed that that the round thingies that Miller depicted on the outer leg of pantaloons in his paintings were only for decoration. Whether that's correct for sure. I cannot say. But if I were to lay down money on it, I would bet with them.

One thing I have say about Rex Norman is that his work made me go look at a lot of period art work. That was a truly great thing, but I also found that I don't always agree with his interpretation of those paintings.

Sean

[Cody]

Yup me too

[buckskin billy]

howdy yall,
i would like to add a little here.
i too agree as in not always agreeing with miller.
miller was only with one group of trappers. that is not to say every trapping brigade did the same.
when i'm in doubt about something i feel miller is a good safe "go to" reference, until something better comes along