Hawken Rifles

[Longarm]

[whitehair]

Librarian, Would you please describe your copy of a Jake Hawken flintlock? Did it have "plains rifle" features? Shoot sharp, Mike

[Chuck Burrows]

Mike - based on Mick's description I'm betting that the one he had made was based on the Kollar Hawken - in BOB 3 take a look at maker Fred Johnson - he used the same rifle as his inspiration. It's the one with the Va Manufactory style trigger guard.
Now for the other shoe to drop - the "problem" is the rifle, which was burned up, has/had some features questioned by some of the leading Hawken experts - overall the rifle "looked" the part - it's similar in stock style to the Dunham Hawken in Baird's book, early mtn rifle styling, swamped barrel, etc. but some of the details such as dove tailed barrel lugs rather than staked as all other known Hawken rifles used, the almost too obvious use of the VA Man trigger guard as an early feature, etc. rang some warning bells.
Nothing to make it "stink" perhaps, but enough "problems" to make it questionable to those who had examined many other originals close up. IIRC this was also the same rifle that Phil Sanders based his "infamous" flint Hawken copy on - the one that did fool a lot of even some of the well informed.

The Kollar Hawken was written up in the old Buckskin Report and some where I have a photo copy so will post it if/when I find it.
Here's a pic of the Kollar - scanned from a photocopy so no the best:

[whitehair]

Chuck, Thanks for the come-back. I have all of the early Buckskin Reports so maybe I can find the story about the Kollar Hawken soon. For now, do you remember if this rifle used a drum & nipple when converted to percussion, did it have two lock screws, and did it have the cut-out in the top of the lock molding for the cock to come to rest on the top of the lock plate? Details, details,, I know... Just trying to learn more. Shoot sharp, Mike

[Lloyd]

I think it was the fall of 1974 when I started building from scratch, this, my idea of what a flint hawken would look like.

It is the bottom rifle, the top one I made in 1983...



I pretty much copied a fullstock J & S Hawken rifle that was in the collection of Edwin Louer of Tucson, Arizona. The gun was illustrated in John Baird's "Hawken Rifles."



I started out with a large maple board that I got at a local cabinet shop (it was too curly for their use and they sold it at a reduced price... I got 2 fullstocks and 2 halfstocks out of that board) I forged the buttplate out of two pieces and brazed them together leaving the fine brass line that is mentioned in the Hawken book. At that time, they didn't make the triggerguard with the flat to the wrist extension, so I had to forge and file it also.... The lock was a Harold Robbins "Maslin Warrenteed" The barrel I got from Green River Rifleworks It was a 1 inch .58 caliber 42 inches long. I made all the rest of the furniture. I didn't have a mill back then so it was hacksaw and file.... I wanted a flint hawken bad

Once again it is the bottom rifle.



Rifles got flipped here it is on the top (sorry for the cord in the way)

[sean]

Whitehair of the campfire and coffee pot,

Because it was destroyed, I'll give you my thoughts on it.

That gun was reportedly converted from flint. It reportedly had a plugged touch hole that was placed differently than the drum and nipple. If the lock panels were cut for a flint cock, I can't tell from the article. As Chuck said we will never know because it was destroyed in a house fire and nothing remains of the stock.

Now before you think you've found the Holy Grail, realize that some in-the-know Hawken collectors who've handled the remains think it 'smells slightly' off as Chuck says. The barrel lug thing was told to me by two of the most knowledgeable people on Hawkens that I know. Another thing that makes me sorta think "huh?" about this rifle is that it has a swamped barrel but it was evenly swamped with the waist right in the middle. Swamped makes sense, but the shape does not even if it was set back substantially at the breech. Finally, the author's description of the plugged touch hole found when the barrel was unbreeched doesn't quite sit squarely for me having seen a bunch of converted original flint guns. If the drum wasn't threaded into the old touch hole area because of wear, then the barrel would have been bobbed to remove the corroded area at the breech, rebreeched and set back in the stock.

It may not stink, but it does smell a couple days past the 'best if used by' date. That said, this is one possible early Hawken that I would like to be real. Its just way off from anything else that was made by the Hermanos de los Hawkens. Its unlike anything Sam made before his J&S work. It could be that it is the elusive product of the elder brother Jake. That is also very likely wishful thinking.

That's my $0.02 on the issue, and if pressed I'll even knock the price off 50% just because you're a good guy.

Sean

[sean]

Lloyd,

You did a heck of a nice job on that one.

The Louer gun is an unsigned piece which does not necessarily toss out the baby with the bathwater, but it is thought to be an 1840's gun based on the trigger guard and a few other things. Its always been a caplock, and other than the Kollar Hawken there are no known examples of J&S Hawkens that appear to have been flint. That doesn't mean they never made one, it just suggests they may have been rare as hen's teeth.

Sean

[whitehair]

Sean, For a penny I'll take your advice, all of it. Yes, I can sniff the fishiness too. Even so, I appreciate the details.

Like Lloyd's, my full-stock Hawken copy was patterned, from the lock forward, after the Louer Hawken shown in Hawken Rifles. I talked to Ed Louer about that rifle after he had sold it and he told me that it was not marked. That might simply mean that it had been rebarreled. A good looking rifle, for sure.

I'll try to add a picture of my gun, let me experiment....
Shoot sharp's the word, Mike

Attachments:

[Lloyd]

I'm not real proud of the fact, but in the early 80's Bruce Joham talked me into assembling a bunch of halfstock Hawkens with flintlocks on them...

I knew they weren't anywhere near correct, but I was building guns for a living and there were guys lined up to buy them....

Sometimes one just turns into a prostitute......

I haven't made a flint Hawken since 1984.

[sean]

Lloyd,

Speculation is fun and there's nothing wrong with building a speculative gun. That doesn't make you a prostitute, either. Building guns for other people means you build what they want if you want to eat. That's just the nature of the business. The only place we tend to get into trouble is when we intentionally misrepresent speculation as fact for a paycheck. I don't think you were doing that by any means.

Sean

[skillman]

Lloyd
You would starve as a prostitute. A gunmaker? That's a different matter. I remember Jerry Huddleston really causing a stir at one of the gunmakers fairs at the ranch when he said as a builder you built what the customer wanted.
Steve

[sean]

You would starve as a prostitute. A gunmaker? That's a different matter.

That's one of those complements that you say, "hmm?..." about. ;D

Sean

[Librarian]

How do!

Thanks for posting before I had to.

IF gunmakers did not make what customers (thought they) wanted, they would starve away.

Especially those making 1820-1830 guns for the 1750-1785 community.