Hawken Rifles

[Cap't Bridger]

Nice format , Chuck.

Chuck, do you have a image/photo of Jim Bridgers actual Hawken ? I know it exist, I have seen the photo in books before, but I can not find it on the internet at all.

Thanks for the board,,this outta be GOOD !

[Chuck Burrows]

Hola Cap'n Bridger- here ya go - best I can do - I've also got some pics of Carson's Hawken if you want it - both were built about the same time by Sam circa mid-1850's.....



I actually had the luck to handle the Bridger rifle back in the 1970's...........I've also got pics of a whole lot of Hawkens, I'll post more as time goes by, but I'll put them in the rifle section.

[Cap't Bridger]

Yep, Chuck, if you have an image of Carsons rifle, I'd sure love to peek at it.

Dang, this is gonna be a good site ,,,,thanks for creating it Chuck.

[buffalochip]

Howdy Fellas,

Nice Board!!!!Thanks for building the board Chuck. ;D

[Lloyd]

Chuck, and you too Mikey,

I have handled several Hawken rifles and they are all different to a degree. (handmade you know)

I notice that the Bridger Hawken and the one that was in the Texas Ranger Meusem in Waco Texas look virtually the same. Even the wear on the forearm (the rest of the gun stock is dark, but the forearm is worn down to raw wood and light colored) is the same.

I know that the librarians poo poo any research that is over 30 minutes old, but I still find John Baird's two books to be the best research I have seen yet.

One thing that we have to remember about the Hawken..
It only represents a very late period of the Western Fur Trade.

A person who carries a Hawken Mountain Rifle would do well to have a "plainsman" impression rather than trying to fit it in to an early impression...

I like that "plainsman" era though... You can carry a Hawken gun and a Colt percussion pistol or two....

What more could a guy ask for???

[pathfinder]

I had seen a collection of original "Hawken Family" long rifles which predated the Jake and Sam work out of St Louis, which were classic Golden Age guns. I don't know when the standard "Hawken plains rifle" including the early flintlock style, evolved. I remember that Bobby Archibald, one of the old Steamboat guys had a full stock long barreled Hawken flintlock built at GRRW. Now I always assumed it was a copy of an original.......but was it? I once fondled an original Hawken rifle that Frank Sellers let me view. I was taken back as to how long the barrel was and I would guess it was at least 38" long....which seemed longer than the later Bridger and Kit Carson versions.

This is one of the reasons I decided against a Hawken in my early days. I agree with Lloyd that the type of percussion guns represented, is better suited for plainsman/early buffalo hunter impression.

[Chuck Burrows]

Figured since this went off in this direction that I'd move it to the rifles section........

Jul 7, 2010 10:42:49 GMT -7 Lloyd said:

I have handled several Hawken rifles and they are all different to a degree. (handmade you know)

I know that the librarians poo poo any research that is over 30 minutes old, but I still find John Baird's two books to be the best research I have seen yet.

One thing that we have to remember about the Hawken..
It only represents a very late period of the Western Fur Trade.

A person who carries a Hawken Mountain Rifle would do well to have a "plainsman" impression rather than trying to fit it in to an early impression...

Lloyd - I too have handled about a dozen original Hawken mtn rifles over the years as well and too a degree you're right about the dating but that depends on style, etc. and I agree I've never seen two even that were exactly alike, especially those of the J & S era (pre-1849)
As for late period that too would depend on what you mean by late - current research shows:
1) that in 1829 an entry for "2 rifles, Hawkins & Co., $50 " was made against Etienne Provost's account. In the same year, Kenneth McKenzie from Fort Floyd (later renamed Fort Union) asked Pierre Chouteau Jr. for two rifles "similar in all respects to the one made by Hawkins for Provost."
2) William May, UMO, April 14, 1830 bought:
Hawken rifle $26.50 (May apparently charged the rifle to his UMO account at the Hawken shop)
3) Later - though still pre-1840:
In 1834 a listing of trade goods entrusted to Provost for deliverv to the rendezvous site in the Rockies included
6 steel mounted rifles, Hawken at $20 each.
3) Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co.
2 Rifles Hawkin
10 Boxes Percussion Caps
4) 1836 American Fur Company invoice 1836:
8 Hawkins " from $20 to $26
2 Rifles Hawkins @$24
5) 1837 American Fur Company invoice 1837:
10 Hawkens Rifles @$24
6) June 1839, one of the company's employees bought from "Jacob and Sam. Hawkins" a "smooth bord rifle $22" - this one if very interesting since it's only one of two references I know of for smooth rifles west of the Mississippi
While no not every mountaineer carried a Hawken they were not quite as rare pre-1840 as some have stated.

And John Baird's (who I knew fairly well back in the mid-1970's - first met him in 1973 at NAPR #!) work is still valuable along with that of Hanson, but both need to be read with and open mind and grain or two of salt - wish some others such as Don Stith or Jerry Gniemi would write up their research.

I remember that Bobby Archibald, one of the old Steamboat guys had a full stock long barreled Hawken flintlock built at GRRW. Now I always assumed it was a copy of an original.......but was it? I once fondled an original Hawken rifle that Frank Sellers let me view. I was taken back as to how long the barrel was and I would guess it was at least 38" long....which seemed longer than the later Bridger and Kit Carson versions.
[/img]
The GRRW flint Hawkens were not as far as I know a copy of an original...So far as I know the only verified flint Hawken is the one built by Sam circa 1852-54 and now in the Smithsonian. It was crudely percussed, but the overall evidence shows that it was originally flint.
As for flint Hawkens - considering that Jake was building rifles in St Lous in 1818 and Sam in 1822 and the partnered up in 1825, there were undoubtedly some flinters built - especially since the cap lock was not widely accepted in the West for another 5-10 years. What these early rifles exactly looked like is anotehr question. IMO there was most likely a transition period between the styles they learned to build in Maryland (a few of which still exist including an early Sam built gun that was almost assuredly built as a percussion to begin with) and at Harper's Ferry and the full fledged Mtn Rifle, which was definitley influenced by the English Half-stocks of the period and possibly/probably the M1803.
Barrel Lengths: 38" is pretty common on especially the earlier rifles whether full or halfstock. Some extant Hawkens have barrels up to 42", a pretty common length on all types of pre-1840 RMFT rifles. The Bridger and Carson as I noted above are mid-1850's models and have barrels in the 34-35" range.

Anyway I'll post some more images later including the Carson and what I consider to be one of the earliest J & S guns still extant, built circa 1830, with several early characteristics.
For now I'm headed for the bunk house - too little sleep over the last couple of days and the heat have me dog tired.

[pathfinder]

Chuck

Thanks! Great stuff for earlier Hawken guns!

[Cap't Bridger]

Tom Patton tells me the early colonial era gunbuilder, Wolfgang Haga, was Sam and Jacob Hawkins grandfather. That 'Haga later became Hawken ?

Do ya'll know anything about this ? I've never read it, only heard it from Tom.

[Librarian]

How do !

Back in the daze of Art Ressel and the "Hawken Shop," it was nice to go in and handle some Hawken guns.

In 1980, through the Shop, I was put in contact with a builder who had access to a full stock flint Jake Hawken in a private collection. And he copied it for, only left-handed.

When I left the MM Era, I sold it to finance a Darrall/H. House longrifle.

A few years later, regretting selling it, I tried to have it remade. But alas, the original Hawken was lost when the owner's house and collection burned down in a fire.

A former pard, returning to MM from Longhunter, commissioned a copy of the Bridger Hawken, and asked me to appraise it for insurance purposes.
It is a nice gun, but I found it too heavy for "off-hand" field use.

[Lloyd]

It would have been a real trick for Wolfgang Haga to have been Sam and Jake's "Paternal" grandpa.

Wolfgang Haga was listed in the Reading, Pennsylvania tax list from 1767 to 1781, Pennsylvania Archives, 3 series, Vol 18, page 757. Will probated 1796.

Jake and Sam's dad was Christian Hawken and he resided in Hagerstown, Maryland:
Advertisement in the Washington Spy, May 1794. "An inventory of the Goods and Chattles and other personal property belonging to the estate of Christian Hawken deceas'd!" Among them are found 2 Rifle rods, 11 Rifle buts, 1 cast anvil, 1 Sett of stocking Tools, 1 pair pinchers and old iron, one rifling rod, 1 Single Barrel Shot Gun, 26 Gun Stocks, 1 Rifle Buck, 11 Old Gun Barrels. Inventory of Appraisal Liber F. folio 263 and 197,
Date of Admin, Oct. 22, 1821, Washington County Court House, Hagerstown, Maryland.
(I don't really understand the dates on this add.)
Christian's dad was Nicholas HAWKEN (Hachen) (1718-58). Born in Kirchdorf, Bern canton, Switzerland. By 1751 he was in Hanover, York Co Pa as a gunsmith. He died too young to have taught the trade to his son, but he may have trained George Schroyer (Shumway (1), Page 393.)

Now, Haga could have been Jake & Sam's momma's daddy, but I don't know how to find that info.

Ol Tom might have been jerkin your chain.....

[Cap't Bridger]

Ol Tom might have been jerkin your chain....

I figure that is exactly the case, Lloyd.

[Longarm]

Cap't, This is Carsons Hawken that resides in the Masons Hall in Santa Fe NM. They were more than happy to show it to me and let me handle it
Three more pics coming, sorry about the quality.

[Longarm]

[Longarm]