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Post by TurkeyCreek on Dec 10, 2015 11:29:36 GMT -7
Okay, are there any original fullstock flint Leman trade rifles out there? I've seen several Lemans but personally haven't had my hands on a flint gun yet. Y'all wade in on this please.
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Post by leatherstocking on Dec 10, 2015 14:05:53 GMT -7
Here's a few..............not all are necessarily "trade rifles".  LLoyd modeled a gun he recently sold from the Leman below........notice the faux striping!   |
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Post by TurkeyCreek on Dec 10, 2015 14:12:37 GMT -7
Perfect Doug! Thanks! I'm looking at building a Leman for my next build and really prefer flint. Just hadn't seen any that I recall. Thanks for the pictures!
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Post by leatherstocking on Dec 10, 2015 15:28:59 GMT -7
If I had it to do again.......I'd have made my Leman with a few inches longer.....smaller O/D diameter barrel (mine is a 28" 1 1/8").......and one of those brass cap boxes........but I was thinking "hunting rifle" that could be thrown into a saddle scabbard......and I wasn't confident enough to inlet the cap box............if I had the money in '78....I'd loved to had one like Lloyd built, only in .58 cal.
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Post by TurkeyCreek on Dec 14, 2015 10:40:25 GMT -7
Yeah, I'm thinking 36"x 15/16" .54 bore on this one. Haven't decided if I will try the faux striping or not. Plenty of time to think about it.
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Post by Chuck Burrows on Dec 14, 2015 11:51:32 GMT -7
TC - you've got a nice project ahead of you. The first two muzzle loaders I owned were original Lemans (this was in the 1960's when such guns were cheap, especially in Penna where I lived at the time). First one was a cap lock cira late 1860's - the barrel was 38" and was tapered (1 1/16" at the breech and about 15/16" at the muzzle), caliber was .58" - this one had the typical Leman "cap box" (a modern term BTW)and along with the rest of the furniture was brass except for the butt plate which was iron (a not uncommon mix found on Lemans). The second was a flintlock circa early 1850's - the barrel was 42" swamped with a breech 1 3/32" - don't remember the rest although IIRC the muzzle was 1" (?)- caliber was .54" which I fell in love with and every rifle I've built since then (ten IIRC) was in .54" - the 30-06 of the muzzleloaders. All fittings were brass with the early ghost head patch box (see image below). Based on fur trade company orders especially in the earlier days the most common barrel lengths were 38-44". For a lock I would recommend the Chambers LATE Ketland (had one - very excellent) or the Ketland Style flintlock from the Hawken Shoppe. Appropriate fittings and furniture can be purchased from several sources. This Leman is IIRC in the Museum of the Fur Trade collection, but is a spittin' image of my flinter.  PS I'm stuck in the hospital right now fighting areal bad cough that wont stop due to having a compromised on immune system (Docs are worried about pneumonia), but anyway when I get back home I've got several more images of Lemans on my home computer and I'll post them for you of you like including Chief Joseph's Leman with short barrel. |
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Post by leatherstocking on Dec 14, 2015 19:33:48 GMT -7
Chuck....get well!
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Pare
Mountaineer
Posts: 153
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Post by Pare on Dec 14, 2015 23:10:09 GMT -7
Get well, Chuck!!
Pare-
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Post by teakmtn on Dec 15, 2015 11:23:18 GMT -7
Yes, get well Chuck.
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Post by TurkeyCreek on Dec 15, 2015 21:44:09 GMT -7
Chuck, I'm awful sorry to hear that you're in the hospital! Praying that you get well real soon! I was hoping you would weigh in on this question. Thanks for the input. I look forward to more pictures when you get to feeling better.
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Post by leatherstocking on Dec 16, 2015 12:38:12 GMT -7
In the day.....I mainly wanted to be different and as nearly everyone I knew either had a GRRW Hawken or a custom made gun. The GRRW Indian gun just made sense to fit my needs............though to strain gnats, it probably wasn't the right gun for the period (1830's) but did suit my needs as far as hunting is concern. I had originally ordered A "trapper's rendezvous" half stock from John Corn in Denver.....he having GRRW make his special edition of a half stock brass mounted rifle. I wanted in the more common .54 cal. that my buddies had their rifles made in, but a mistake was made in the order and I received a .58. However when I sold that gun to order a GRRW Leman fullstock flinter.....as I already had a .562 mold I went with a .58 again and confess I was never disappointed. There were a bunch of guys in those days shooting buffalo with their front stuffers...John Corn being one of them and he shot his first with a .58 and had to chase it for 3 days......said the round went into the "hump". He decided the next rifle he ordered for himself would be in a .62 cal. or .69 caliber I don't know the particulars on the ballistics of one from another but I always thought if I ever went with another rifle gun it would be in a .62 as well. MY current smooth rifle is in .62 but as I haven't had a chance to take meat with it yet, I can't comment......though smooth bore verses rifled gun......apples and oranges I guess! I can say that from my Leman a .562 ball in front of 110gr of ffg at 25yds will go the full length of a 250lb black bear even after glancing off the scapula.
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Post by gregorio on Dec 17, 2015 7:58:32 GMT -7
Yes hope all us old timers are doing well, this mountain has to level out somewhere. Back in the day I made a percussion Hawken from parts I got from Ted Fellowes, it started out life as a .50, I cracked the barrel , buldged really, I was being young and stupid. Bought a Sharon .62 rifle barrel in 1 inch, easy fix. I shot 110 grain 3f . That change this gun from ho hum to, this gun really shoots!!! Killed a ton of blacktails, some elk, bear, pretty much whatever you pointed it at. Shoots grouse heads off like it once worked for Col. Sanders. I"m hunting now with a 62 smooth rifle, made by Wayne Estes. So far it does a good job on elk and deer. I think the rifle has a little more whack to it but not that much I think. I think .62 is my favorite cal. I have a Ted Fellowes Bucks county in .58 that's a close second. |
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Post by leatherstocking on Dec 17, 2015 13:11:36 GMT -7
Yes hope all us old timers are doing well, this mountain has to level out somewhere. Back in the day I made a percussion Hawken from parts I got from Ted Fellowes, it started out life as a .50, I cracked the barrel , buldged really, I was being young and stupid. Bought a Sharon .62 rifle barrel in 1 inch, easy fix. I shot 110 grain 3f . That change this gun from ho hum to, this gun really shoots!!! Killed a ton of blacktails, some elk, bear, pretty much whatever you pointed it at. Shoots grouse heads off like it once worked for Col. Sanders. I"m hunting now with a 62 smooth rifle, made by Wayne Estes. So far it does a good job on elk and deer. I think the rifle has a little more whack to it but not that much I think. I think .62 is my favorite cal. I have a Ted Fellowes Bucks county in .58 that's a close second. Great testimony on your smooth rifle......it's one I started wanting back 15 years ago when I first saw one on TOTW. I was privy to another testimony when back in my 20's about a guy in Colorado that hunted exclusively with a Northwest Trade gun and had taken every waterfowl/upland fowl, small game and at least one of every big game animal in Colorado at the time except a big horn sheep.....he "supposedly" was the only one who had taken a Mountain Goat with a smooth bore flintlock in modern times. Anyway as I was fairly committed to hunting with muzzleloaders....I always thought to have a smooth bore, I could try and repeat as much as possible the same accomplishment. Today, I'd settle for another trophy whitetail and a mule deer, elk, black bear, lion and "Prairie Goat"...and a moose would be great as well.............. I have for the last 40 years been more of a "method hunter" taking game with flintlock or my Sharps business rifle......I have pretty much turned the corner on my hunting and am much more the "conservationist" than I am a meat hunter....not that I don't want the meat, but I have decided to let the little bucks, spike and rag horn bulls grow up. So I expect to probably kill less animals in the next decade than I have in the previous ones.......hopefully not, but age, physical limitations and poorer eye sight is increasingly putting the critters at much better advantage........growing old ain't for cowards. Having said that, I have left instructions that before I am put in a nursing home I am to be placed in Griz country smeared in honey and bacon with nothing more than a pocket knife (want to make it fair of the Grizzly). I expect that is still 20 years minimum away...............although I did help a little old lady in her "100's" walk to the door of the church last Sunday.....sorta gave me hope!  |
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Post by TurkeyCreek on Dec 18, 2015 10:51:00 GMT -7
Gregorio and Leatherstocking, I plan to hunt spring turkey and maybe deer next fall with the .62 NWTG I just finished if I haven't sold it by then. Having said that, I'm hard pressed to hunt deer with anything but my .54 flint "Hawken" because I know where she shoots and how she shoots and she ain't never let me down yet. Me and her have just kinda grown together over the years. (Couldn't afford a GRRW back then so I just built my own). When I get the $$ for the Leman and get it finished I'll offer it up for sale as well. I just want to build a few period correct hunting guns and accouterments and try to get folks interested in hunting with them. That's gonna be one of my "retirement" jobs here in about another year or so. That, mowing yards, hunting more, more trail running and hopefully a periodical return to the mission field. The Lord willin' and the creek don't rise.
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Post by gregorio on Dec 19, 2015 9:13:24 GMT -7
I'm with you guys on the reasons , methods, and mentality of a good flint gun, I own one that if I'm hunting with another gun, I feel like I'm cheating on it. Guess that's that connection with it. I wonder what the percentage of black powder hunters there are flint vs percussion, for that matter match and wheel lock shooters. I don't know or have ever seen the two latter, hunting. The rest nearly all percussion and those are inline. Not saying wrong, just not my cup of tea. I did have to convert from percussion tho, thought the flint not reliable, that was many years ago now, and nothing could be farther from the truth. This year I did have a hunter stop me in a panic, wanting to know if I had a spare cap! The look of disbelief , made me chuckle a little. This post has got away from leman a little an my computer edicut is at 0, so I'll mention I owed a grww leman trade rifle in .50 11/8" barrel full stock, nice little gun but kind of a chunk, in a good way tho. Gave it to my hunting partner for his first flinter, and he has taken many deer width it. Nuthin like a good flint gun, horseback in the high county. Can't run those ridges like I use to, but I still do, just do it a little different now. Wouldn't mind just kegging up some place up high when the time comes, an just go back to the earth. But there is a lot more to do in the mean time , I'm not rushing it. Good talkin at you boys. Greg.
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