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Post by Cap't Bridger on Jul 8, 2010 3:25:14 GMT -7
Thats a big , heavy duty, firearm of large calibre, and I was wondering if some of the old Brown Bess live their last life out west of the River.
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Post by subrosa on Jul 8, 2010 5:53:08 GMT -7
I saw Brown Besses in Afghanistan back in the 70's
yes, the 1970's!!!!
If they can survive that long over there, they could certainly have
made it across the Mississippi!
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Post by pathfinder on Jul 8, 2010 8:35:30 GMT -7
I seam to recall that Manual Lisa carried one?  ? This would be before 1820...........if I am correct. |
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Lloyd
Mountaineer
Posts: 117
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Post by Lloyd on Jul 8, 2010 11:18:36 GMT -7
There were a whole bunch of Mexicans who carried them....
Surplus Brown Bess's were the standard arm of the Mexican Army at the time of the battle of the Alamo.
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Post by pathfinder on Jul 8, 2010 11:28:21 GMT -7
Lloyd I think you'll find they were infantry model trap door Springfields with flintlock cocks brazed onto the hammers and frizzens on the trapdoors. I know cause I saw one once at a gun show.......they were also stamped MGM!  |
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Post by pathfinder on Jul 8, 2010 11:32:30 GMT -7
Mike I think I know what you're trying to do.......and I think that it would be hard to argue against a Bess in the early western fur trade (I don't know why anyone would want to at less than 75 yds! ) That way you could use it for both colonial and western fur trade..........especially if your persona was very specific! Lloyd or Chuck would have a better opinion. |
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Post by Cap't Bridger on Jul 8, 2010 12:53:18 GMT -7
Doug,,,ya is right , pard. I wanted to find a Bess for the 18th century at some point soon. I used to HATE Bess's,,felt anyone that was carrying a Bess was making a statement,,'I'm a poor hunter'..but,,as time has crawled by,,,I've became all but obsessed with the big ol' massive creature ! IF,,,IF it would work for both things,,,I'd love to get my 'fur trade' clothes pretty well right,,and go to some event more geared to the 'fur trade'. Actually, I'm trying to shift the stars into an aliment that says 'go west, young man ! (young is relative ya know  ) I know there are 'better' choices for western fur trade than a Bess might be,,but ,,IF it would work,,would save me some serious dollars. If it won't,,,well,,it won't and I'll improvise somehow. |
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Lloyd
Mountaineer
Posts: 117
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Post by Lloyd on Jul 8, 2010 19:22:19 GMT -7
Mike,
Make a study of Manuel Lisa and style your transitional outfit after him and his men..
Remember he was there when Lewis and Clark did their thing...
If I remember right, John Colter went to work for him on returning to St. Lewis after the L&C adventure.
You could get by with lots of eastern style stuff during that era.
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Post by Cap't Bridger on Jul 8, 2010 19:31:34 GMT -7
Excellent suggestion , Lloyd. I'll be right on studying about him and his time.
Good lord ! I might even end up in the LIBRARY ! ROFLOL !
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Post by pathfinder on Jul 8, 2010 20:47:21 GMT -7
Mike
Check out "Manuel Lisa and the Opening of the Missouri Fur Trade"
Author Richard Oglesby
Manuel Lisa: With hitherto unpublished material - Hardcover (1964)
by Walter Bond Douglas and Abraham P. Nasatir
Check out Amazon for good prices on used books!
Doug
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Post by Chuck Burrows on Jul 8, 2010 21:40:44 GMT -7
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jeffp
Mountaineer
Posts: 48
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Post by jeffp on Jul 12, 2010 11:23:59 GMT -7
Mike-
As stated, yeah Lisa carried one, and ordered a bunch for his men, they found them
extremely effective against the Grizzlies. I'm sure plenty more found their way out west as part of trade ordinance, as well as being sold the the Mexican government.
Like Lloyd said, read up on Lisa' Upper Missouri outfit, George Droulliard was
a partner, and Colter, Potts and several other ex L&C'ers worked for him.
Good stuff, Lisa was a real conniving bastardo! ;D
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Post by Cap't Bridger on Jul 12, 2010 11:31:45 GMT -7
Yea, that Manual Lisa was the Al Capone of the fur trade ! Interesting fella to say the least.
Ok,,I'm bout settled on my 'wants' (ill call it 'wants' till i get some money, then it'll be a choice)....and I believe a Bess would be the ticket for early RM Fur Trade.
And, I can float back to the colonial thing with the same gun...and save me a few bucks to buy whiskey and white wimmen with. (just a'kiddin' there , thats The Librarians area!)
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Post by Librarian on Jul 12, 2010 16:58:27 GMT -7
How do! Short answer is "yes." Longer answer is that "Brown Bess" is a loose term, one that covers the four evolutionary "models" of the musket: 1. Long Land Pattern (aka 1st Model) 2. New, Short Land Pattern (2nd Model) 3. India Pattern (3rd Model) 4. New Land Service (4th Model) What the British did is assign the new guns to the prime units, and pass down the 2nd best down the pecking order ladder. As they became too obsolete, they were sold out of government stores as "surplus." When Britain went to percussion starting roughly in the 1830's, Santa Anna bought up a ton of the 2nd and 3rd Models and a sprinkling of Baker Rifles. And last, I guess, is Believable Image. As with reenactors, it is hard to have a brand new, mint, unused Long Land musket from say 1742 in 1832... A large bore musket has considerable knock down power at short range, but suffers from a lack of accuracy beyond say 50 yards. That is why they were not as popular as rifles for hunters and often were delegated to boat protection, or trading post/station/fort protection duties. (Especially when charged with swan shot and used as shotguns.) |
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Post by Rod on Jul 13, 2010 7:06:20 GMT -7
Just a random thought, but did the British at that time mark any of their firearms as having been passed out of service? I'm thinking of the 2 broad arrows, point to point, that indicates that the arm was surplussed that shows up on 20th century surplus British arms. An indicator that the arm was surplussed rather than stolen. Any such mark for the Bess?
Rod
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? This would be before 1820...........if I am correct.
)
